ukclique > railway

R. Mark Clayton (31.08.2017, 20:25)
On Thursday, 31 August 2017 10:52:56 UTC+1, Ian Batten wrote:
> On Thursday, 31 August 2017 10:34:21 UTC+1, rob...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Well, assuming they were going to fly. If you make travel by plane sufficiently
> tricky, they might switch to (say) high-speed rail, which reduces carbon emissions
> rather more than worrying about the access to the airheads.
> ian


If you go into Grand Central and ask for a rail ticket to Manchester, they will sell you one, but you will end up in New Hampshire.
R. Mark Clayton (31.08.2017, 20:34)
On Thursday, 31 August 2017 17:43:17 UTC+1, Sam Wilson wrote:
> On 2017-08-27 20:24:44 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:
> Disregarding the sunk costs (and the effects on cyclists which
> hopefully they'll be doing something about), it actually works quite
> well.


Been on it have you?

Infrequent services - especially summer Sundays, slow off road, useless ticket machines - but plenty of gripper to catch those who can't get a ticket out of them, pathetic shelters in which you get soaked, short run, trams stops not next to bus stops, poor integration with buses (other than Lothian buses), hopeless for Waverley, stops early, rip off charge to the airport. I may have missed a couple...

Indeed the only bit that seems to work well is Haymarket interchange.

> Locals who have the Scottish over-60s bus pass seem to rather like it.


No only Lothian residents - a nasty trap for uninitiated pensioners from elsewhere.
[..]
ColinR (31.08.2017, 23:53)
On 31/08/2017 17:43, Sam Wilson wrote:
[snip]
> Disregarding the sunk costs (and the effects on cyclists which hopefully
> they'll be doing something about), it actually works quite well.


Like what, filling in the gaps? Oh, yes, that stops the trams....

Of course cyclists do have a safety system that they can use - their eyes!
spuorgelgoog (01.09.2017, 10:58)
On Thursday, 31 August 2017 18:34:17 UTC+1, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> Infrequent services - especially summer Sundays, slow off road, useless
> ticket machines - but plenty of gripper to catch those who can't get a
> ticket out of them, pathetic shelters in which you get soaked, short
> run, trams stops not next to bus stops, poor integration with buses
> (other than Lothian buses), hopeless for Waverley, stops early, rip
> off charge to the airport. I may have missed a couple...


full of chavs and neds with screaming kids from grotty housing estates

Owain
Sam Wilson (01.09.2017, 12:34)
On 2017-08-31 17:34:15 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:

> On Thursday, 31 August 2017 17:43:17 UTC+1, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Been on it have you?


Several times - I live here but most of my local travel is not on the
tram route.

> Infrequent services - especially summer Sundays, slow off road, useless
> ticket machines - but plenty of gripper to catch those who can't get a
> ticket out of them, pathetic shelters in which you get soaked, short
> run, trams stops not next to bus stops, poor integration with buses
> (other than Lothian buses), hopeless for Waverley, stops early, rip off
> charge to the airport. I may have missed a couple...


I've never had a problem with any of those, but I may have chosen my
times coincidentally. The only issue I've had at the times I've used
it has been overcrowding.

> Indeed the only bit that seems to work well is Haymarket interchange.
> No only Lothian residents - a nasty trap for uninitiated pensioners
> from elsewhere.


Actually it's only City of Edinburgh residents or Scots who are blind
or visually impaired and their companions - I hadn't clocked that.
<http://edinburghtrams.com/tickets/scottish-concession-cards>

Sam
R. Mark Clayton (01.09.2017, 13:12)
On Friday, 1 September 2017 10:34:51 UTC+1, Sam Wilson wrote:
> On 2017-08-31 17:34:15 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:
> Several times - I live here but most of my local travel is not on the
> tram route.


Only every 15 minutes in July / August in 2015 (may have increased)

> > slow off road,


only 42mph. Metrolink 50mph, Met' 62mph (was 70mph)

> > useless ticket machines - but plenty of gripper to catch those who can't get a ticket out of them


More subjective, but compulsory pre-purchase of bus tickets was abandoned due to the machines being crap. Gripper on every tram AFAICT.

> > pathetic shelters in which you get soaked


very narrow, when it is wet and windy rain scythes in from the side

> > short run


Stops short at York Place, may be expanded - fairy godmother permitting. This also means a third of the fleet is moth balled!

> > trams stops not next to bus stops


they seem deliberated 100 - 200m apart to discourage mode shift

> > poor integration with buses (other than Lothian buses)


day tickets allow travel on Lothian buses, but not other operators, nor do stops show full information.

> > hopeless for Waverley


passes, but no stop outside - terrible hike with luggage.

> > stops early


Midnight - was earlier previously.

> > rip off charge to the airport.


£5 premium, making an day ticket £9. By contrast in Manchester you can buy an off peak day ticket for all the trams (92km) for £5, at / including the airport, which is twice as far away. By train it can be £3.80p single.

I may have missed a couple...

> I've never had a problem with any of those, but I may have chosen my
> times coincidentally. The only issue I've had at the times I've used
> it has been overcrowding.


Well if they ran some of the mothballed trams when it is actually busy!

> Actually it's only City of Edinburgh residents or Scots who are blind
> or visually impaired and their companions - I hadn't clocked that.
> <http://edinburghtrams.com/tickets/scottish-concession-cards>


A terrible on tram £10 gouge for vulnerable / unwary elderly people.

> Sam


So that about sums up its poor operation. They are having a public inquiryinto the disastrous construction phase: -



PS do Edinburghers pay more council tax to finance this fiasco?
Neil Williams (01.09.2017, 15:38)
On 2017-09-01 10:12:34 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:

> A terrible on tram 10 gouge for vulnerable / unwary elderly people.


The one thing I don't understand about Edinburgh trams is why you would
have conductors but not have them sell tickets on board and save the
money on ticket machines. Or not have conductors and have revenue
squads instead.

It's a really, really weird hybrid. Almost as weird as Southern OBSs,
but we know why they exist (to attempt to shut the unions up,
essentially).

Neil
Sam Wilson (01.09.2017, 16:14)
On 2017-09-01 10:12:34 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:

> On Friday, 1 September 2017 10:34:51 UTC+1, Sam Wilson wrote:
> SNIP
> Only every 15 minutes in July / August in 2015 (may have increased)


It has - almost no difference over the whole 7 days now - download the
timetable at <http://edinburghtrams.com/plan-a-journey/timetables>.

>>> slow off road,

> only 42mph. Metrolink 50mph, Met' 62mph (was 70mph)


There aren't many places where a higher speed would help, partly
because of the rather winding permanent way which had to thread its way
around existing obstacles (though I don't understand why they had to
have such tight corners out in the section between Gogar and the
airport).

>>> useless ticket machines - but plenty of gripper to catch those who
>>> can't get a ticket out of them

> More subjective, but compulsory pre-purchase of bus tickets was
> abandoned due to the machines being crap. Gripper on every tram AFAICT.


>>> pathetic shelters in which you get soaked

> very narrow, when it is wet and windy rain scythes in from the side


Not features I have had occasion to be critical of.

>>> short run

> Stops short at York Place, may be expanded - fairy godmother
> permitting. This also means a third of the fleet is moth balled!
>>> trams stops not next to bus stops

> they seem deliberated 100 - 200m apart to discourage mode shift


If you're talking about the section east of Haymarket, part of the
reason is road space, but Princes St has bus stops along pretty much
its whole length, and Edinburgh bus stops are very close together
anyway.

>>> poor integration with buses (other than Lothian buses)

> day tickets allow travel on Lothian buses, but not other operators, nor
> do stops show full information.


The vast majority of the buses are Lothian buses, and the tram service
is an extension of Lothian's bus services, rather than the other way
around. If there were interavailable bus tickets (other than PlusBus,
of course) then it would make sense for the tram ticketing to be
integrated too.

>>> hopeless for Waverley

> passes, but no stop outside - terrible hike with luggage.


Yep, but as above trying to fit a tram stop in anywhere closer would
have been pretty awkward.

> Midnight - was earlier previously.
> 5 premium, making an day ticket 9. By contrast in Manchester you can
> buy an off peak day ticket for all the trams (92km) for 5, at /
> including the airport, which is twice as far away. By train it can be
> 3.80p single.


I don't have any comment to make about that - it's policy rather than
technical.

> I may have missed a couple...


I'm sure you might have! :-)

>> I've never had a problem with any of those, but I may have chosen my>
>> times coincidentally. The only issue I've had at the times I've used>
>> it has been overcrowding.

> Well if they ran some of the mothballed trams when it is actually busy!


I don't know if any are actually mothballed or whether they rotate the
operating fleet. They don't multiple and the platforms are too short
to do that anyway.

> A terrible on tram 10 gouge for vulnerable / unwary elderly people.


Actually there are smartcard validators on the platforms and signs
telling you to validate all cards before boarding, so if anyone
following the instructions ought to be aware.

> So that about sums up its poor operation. They are having a public
> inquiry into the disastrous construction phase: -
>


Yep, but my opinion is that the day-to-day operation actually works
well despite some flaws.

> PS do Edinburghers pay more council tax to finance this fiasco?


I'm not sure. There's information at
<http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/counciltaxcharges> but it's not very
explicit.

Sam
Sam Wilson (01.09.2017, 16:17)
On 2017-09-01 12:38:00 +0000, Neil Williams said:

> On 2017-09-01 10:12:34 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:
>> A terrible on tram 10 gouge for vulnerable / unwary elderly people.

> The one thing I don't understand about Edinburgh trams is why you would
> have conductors but not have them sell tickets on board and save the
> money on ticket machines. Or not have conductors and have revenue
> squads instead.


They have to have validators for smartcards. I'm not sure what else
the machines do. Presumably part of the exercise is to save the
conductors having to carry large amounts of change, and they'd have
real trouble trying to get everyone ticketed on a vehicle that long
with so many doors.

> It's a really, really weird hybrid. Almost as weird as Southern OBSs,
> but we know why they exist (to attempt to shut the unions up,
> essentially).


It's difficult to think there was a very similar reason since the buses
have been OPO/DOO/whathaveyou for years.

Sam
Neil Williams (01.09.2017, 16:47)
On 2017-09-01 13:17:40 +0000, Sam Wilson said:

> They have to have validators for smartcards.


They could, and should, have those on board by the doors like European
tram systems do (and TfL buses). Usual European practice is that then
when the revenue inspectors board they disable them so nobody can see
the inspectors and touch in quickly.

>> It's a really, really weird hybrid. Almost as weird as Southern OBSs,
>> but we know why they exist (to attempt to shut the unions up,
>> essentially).

> It's difficult to think there was a very similar reason since the buses
> have been OPO/DOO/whathaveyou for years.


Quite. It is utterly bizarre.

Neil
R. Mark Clayton (01.09.2017, 18:00)
On Friday, 1 September 2017 14:17:42 UTC+1, Sam Wilson wrote:
> On 2017-09-01 12:38:00 +0000, Neil Williams said:
> They have to have validators for smartcards. I'm not sure what else
> the machines do. Presumably part of the exercise is to save the
> conductors having to carry large amounts of change, and they'd have
> real trouble trying to get everyone ticketed on a vehicle that long
> with so many doors.
> It's difficult to think there was a very similar reason since the buses
> have been OPO/DOO/whathaveyou for years.


Yes but Edinburgh's won't give change - I saw a foreign tourist put off because he only had a note. Very customer hostile - as are the trams.
[..]
Sam Wilson (01.09.2017, 20:30)
On 2017-08-31 20:53:49 +0000, ColinR said:

> On 31/08/2017 17:43, Sam Wilson wrote:
> [snip]
>> Disregarding the sunk costs (and the effects on cyclists which
>> hopefully they'll be doing something about), it actually works quite
>> well.

> Like what, filling in the gaps? Oh, yes, that stops the trams....


They've looked at that and there are compressible fillings, but
apparently they're not suitable for our tramways.

> Of course cyclists do have a safety system that they can use - their eyes!


Yeah, except the road engineering can make it difficult to do that, and
pressure from other vehicles can make the situation dangerous or even
fatal - see the recent death of a cyclist in Edinburgh.

The engineering of the road leaves a lot to be desired in terms of
cycle routes. You could argue that in places (I'm thinking of turning
into Waverley Bridge from Princes St[1] or going straight on at the
junction with S St Andrew St[2]) the only safe thing is to get off and
walk. There is no signage warning cyclists at those points, unlike at
the Mound/Hanover St crossing where the marked cycle lane crosses the
tracks at less acute angle.

At Haymarket, previously a known black spot, they have painted a
prominent cycle lane which appears to be helping[3,4]. There's talk of
working on further ideas like that.

Sam

[1] <https://goo.gl/maps/dAemU798BvJ2>
[2] <https://goo.gl/maps/VZxYe3Cutux>
[3] <http://www.spokes.org.uk/2017/08/tramline-safety-update/> and see
the third bullet point under "1. Measures..."
[4] <https://goo.gl/maps/wgfL13SyxUL2> May 2016, though if you move
forward one step you'll see what it was like before.
Sam Wilson (01.09.2017, 20:35)
On 2017-09-01 13:47:45 +0000, Neil Williams said:

> On 2017-09-01 13:17:40 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>> They have to have validators for smartcards.

> They could, and should, have those on board by the doors like European
> tram systems do (and TfL buses). Usual European practice is that then
> when the revenue inspectors board they disable them so nobody can see
> the inspectors and touch in quickly.


I'm not sure how the platform and on-board validators work. For
counted journey cards (Citysmart and phone m-tickets) they need to
check that a ticket has been marked as used in the last 30 minutes
before boarding; for season tickets (Ridacards) and over-60s cards and
the like, all they need to do is check that they're valid, but maybe
they stick a "valid journey" tag of some kind on them anyway.

>>> It's a really, really weird hybrid. Almost as weird as Southern OBSs,
>>> but we know why they exist (to attempt to shut the unions up,
>>> essentially).

>> It's difficult to think there was a very similar reason since the buses
>> have been OPO/DOO/whathaveyou for years.

> Quite. It is utterly bizarre.


For some time they had off-bus ticket machines (as well as pay-driver)
but they didn't last long - I'm not sure why. Plus a change...

Sam
Sam Wilson (01.09.2017, 20:38)
On 2017-09-01 15:00:43 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:

> On Friday, 1 September 2017 14:17:42 UTC+1, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Yes but Edinburgh's won't give change - I saw a foreign tourist put off
> because he only had a note. Very customer hostile - as are the trams.


Just FTR other bus operators do give change, I think it's just Lothian
and their tram ticket machines that don't. I don't think that makes
them particularly unusual, but I agree it's less than user friendly in
a city with so many tourists.

Sam
Roland Perry (01.09.2017, 23:48)
In message <f4c0378f-08e4-4ea2-975b-6fdedacc9bca>, at
08:00:43 on Fri, 1 Sep 2017, R. Mark Clayton <notyalckram>
remarked:
>> It's difficult to think there was a very similar reason since the buses
>> have been OPO/DOO/whathaveyou for years.

>Yes but Edinburgh's won't give change - I saw a foreign tourist put off
>because he only had a note.


A tourist I met today claimed that the TfL ticket machines at Heathrow
accepted neither the new 1 nor the new 5. The latter surprises me
more. But he has a plausible account of the conversation with the
roaming helper. I think the solution was for the helper to manually give
old 1s as change for the new fiver.

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