ukclique > transport.* > transport.london

Jarle Hammen Knudsen (13.09.2017, 12:52)
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
Roland Perry (13.09.2017, 13:03)
In message <ns2ircl65hccd3vdgtq1imn8sqta6o8846>, at 12:52:52 on
Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Jarle Hammen Knudsen <jhkn> remarked:
>With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
>second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
>forward and touch your card again?


Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?

Otherwise the sort of problem you mention arises. When I last looked, my
Oyster card didn't display when I started the first journey, nor a
stopwatch readout. I don't wear a watch. SK can suck it up!
Jarle Hammen Knudsen (13.09.2017, 13:16)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:03:59 +0100, Roland Perry <roland>
wrote:

>In message <ns2ircl65hccd3vdgtq1imn8sqta6o8846>, at 12:52:52 on
>Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Jarle Hammen Knudsen <jhkn> remarked:
>>With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
>>second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
>>forward and touch your card again?

>Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?


I assume you meant starting the *second* leg within an hour.

No. The fares page [1] says:

" Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus
or tram, and you can now make a second bus or tram journey for free
within one hour of touching in on the first bus or tram. "

To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.

[1]
Recliner (13.09.2017, 13:22)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:16:14 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
<jhkn> wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:03:59 +0100, Roland Perry <roland>
>wrote:
>I assume you meant starting the *second* leg within an hour.
>No. The fares page [1] says:
>" Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus
>or tram, and you can now make a second bus or tram journey for free
>within one hour of touching in on the first bus or tram. "
>To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
>and getting off again.
>[1]


No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
that you touched in correctly.
Neil Williams (13.09.2017, 13:54)
On 2017-09-13 11:16:14 +0000, Jarle Hammen Knudsen said:

> To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
> and getting off again.


TfL does not share your interpretation.

If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
whatever amount of time it takes.

Neil
Neil Williams (13.09.2017, 13:54)
On 2017-09-13 11:22:44 +0000, Recliner said:

> No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
> within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
> you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
> that you touched in correctly.


Correct.

Neil
Jarle Hammen Knudsen (13.09.2017, 20:00)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:22:44 +0100, Recliner
<Recliner.ng> wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:16:14 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
><jhkn> wrote:
>No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
>within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
>you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
>that you touched in correctly.


If that is what TfL means, why do they say "make a second journey
within one hour" instead of "start a second journey within one hour"?

While the Oyster (and contactless) system does not know how long you
stay on a bus, it does record the time of your touches, so it is
definitely possible for a ticket inspector to see how long you have
been on a bus when he checks your card.
Jarle Hammen Knudsen (13.09.2017, 20:02)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:54:33 +0100, Neil Williams
<wensleydale> wrote:

>On 2017-09-13 11:16:14 +0000, Jarle Hammen Knudsen said:
>TfL does not share your interpretation.
>If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
>first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
>whatever amount of time it takes.


Is this documented somewhere?
Richard J. (13.09.2017, 20:35)
Jarle Hammen Knudsen <jhkn> wrote on 13 Sep 2017 at 19:02 ...
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:54:33 +0100, Neil Williams
> <wensleydale> wrote:
> Is this documented somewhere?


It's not in the TfL Conditions of Carriage (12 Sep 2016). Section 6.8.6 says "If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus or tram, you can make a second bus or tram journey for free within one hour of first touching in." As has been noted already, that is ambiguous.
Recliner (13.09.2017, 22:29)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:35:36 +0100, "Richard J."
<rjnews0301> wrote:

>Jarle Hammen Knudsen <jhkn> wrote on 13 Sep 2017 at 19:02 ...
>It's not in the TfL Conditions of Carriage (12 Sep 2016). Section 6.8.6 says "If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus or tram, you can make a second bus or tram journey for free within one hour of first touching in." As has been noted already, that is ambiguous.


I don't find it ambiguous at all. To me, it's perfectly clear that it
means your second touch-in will be free if it's within 60 minutes of
the first.
Recliner (13.09.2017, 22:32)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 20:00:56 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
<jhkn> wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:22:44 +0100, Recliner
><Recliner.ng> wrote:
>If that is what TfL means, why do they say "make a second journey
>within one hour" instead of "start a second journey within one hour"?
>While the Oyster (and contactless) system does not know how long you
>stay on a bus, it does record the time of your touches, so it is
>definitely possible for a ticket inspector to see how long you have
>been on a bus when he checks your card.


Yes, and whether it's within 60 minutes or not is irrelevant: s/he
will be able to see that you touched in on the second bus, which is
all that matters. It doesn't matter to the inspector whether or not
that second touch-in will be charged or not. All that matters is that
you correctly touched in, and are therefore travelling legitimately.

In practice, most of the passengers on a typical bus won't actually be
paying for their journey, but that's OK and legitimate.
Roland Perry (14.09.2017, 08:08)
In message <475jrc5k3r6j27l3vqp1cck07nsu1ebbap>, at 21:29:45 on
Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Recliner <Recliner.ng> remarked:

>I don't find it ambiguous at all. To me, it's perfectly clear that it
>means your second touch-in will be free if it's within 60 minutes of
>the first.


Yes, because I can easily conclude they are (from the public perspective
anyway) falling between two stools of dumbing-down and using internal
jargon.

Thus the public might feel that a more accurate clause was:

"If you COMPLETE ONE journey using pay as you go on a bus or
tram, you can START a second bus or tram journey for free within
one hour of first touching in."

But the author sees:

"If you MAKE A TOUCH-IN using pay as you go on a bus or tram,
you can MAKE a second bus or tram TOUCH-IN for free within one
hour of first touching in."

There's another kind of "make" jargon in the Fire Brigade. By default
they send two pumps, but the officer in charge can radio in "Make pumps
four". Which doesn't mean "please place an order with the manufacturer
to make four more pumps", but "make THE NUMBER OF pumps HERE INCREASE TO
four".
spud (14.09.2017, 10:48)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 21:29:45 +0100
Recliner <Recliner.ng> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:35:36 +0100, "Richard J."
><rjnews0301> wrote:
>"If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus or tram, you can make a
>second bus or tram journey for free within one hour of first touching in." As
>has been noted already, that is ambiguous.
>I don't find it ambiguous at all. To me, it's perfectly clear that it
>means your second touch-in will be free if it's within 60 minutes of
>the first.


Currently the only useful think Kahn/Khan/Little Squirt has done in his
tenure as mayor.
Clive Page (14.09.2017, 12:49)
On 14/09/2017 07:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> Thus the public might feel that a more accurate clause was:
> "If you COMPLETE ONE journey using pay as you go on a bus or
> tram, you can START a second bus or tram journey for free within
> one hour of first touching in."
> But the author sees:
> "If you MAKE A TOUCH-IN using pay as you go on a bus or tram,
> you can MAKE a second bus or tram TOUCH-IN for free within one
> hour of first touching in."


I agree its ambiguous, but the former is surely intended.

But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is terminated early? A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the same route number in a convoy. So I've had to get off and get on another bus that is following the same route. This doesn't cause me more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession, and if so how does the system handle it?
Roland Perry (14.09.2017, 13:08)
In message <f1v553FsvelU1>, at 11:49:08 on Thu, 14
Sep 2017, Clive Page <usenet> remarked:
[..]
>more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using
>Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession,
>and if so how does the system handle it?


Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to
give you a chitty to show the following driver?

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