ukclique > railway

jack (18.09.2017, 15:59)
On Monday, 18 September 2017 13:16:35 UTC+1, Mark Goodge wrote:
[..]
> But, as another counter-example, here's one on Shap earlier this year
> with no diesel:
>


Presumably it depends in part on how confident the operator
is that their steam loco can complete the required diagram
successfully and with no risk of either late running or
breakdown. I imagine Tornado and Flying Scotsman, both
effectively being brand new, can probably be trusted slightly
more than older machines who's operators may want to reduce
the risk just in case? With the modern railway being so
busy and with modern stock able to accelerate much faster
than older equipment (steam or diesel) it's fairly important
for a steam operator not to cause avoidable delays.

A few years ago I was on a steam tour from Whitby to
Carnforth and back with the 8F, though it was really
a 47-hauled tour, the diesel took us to York, where
the steam loco was attached and the diesel moved to
the back. The diesel then assisted between Leeds and
Skipton, though with the 8F also working flat out, in
order to ensure we had the acceleration to keep out
of the way of the 333s on the fairly intensive local
services. The 8F then did most of the work from Skipton
onwards where there were no frequent locals to worry about.

The steam loco was detached at Carnforth and the diesel
took us back to Whitby. I can't remember now if another
diesel was added to top and tail the train, I cant remember
is there a run-round facility at Battersby?

Of course where all the diesel does is provide backup and
doesn't power the train, it serves the additional purpose
of providing an extra hundred tons of train weight for the
steam loco to work against, meaning more loco sound for the
passengers to enjoy. The same could apply to a diesel
tour with say a 37 or a 50 as the main loco and a 47 on the
back for shunts and reversals - more thrash please driver! :)
jack (18.09.2017, 16:01)
On Monday, 18 September 2017 13:34:56 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
> <jack> wrote:
> 'Full speed' for the Jacobite is about the same as a preserved line.


I thought it got up to 40 or so in places? Though has been many
years now since I did the run. Agreed doing 40 tender first
through the Highlands is not quite the same as doing it at 75
on the WCML slows though. :)
jack (18.09.2017, 16:10)
On Monday, 18 September 2017 13:57:29 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <69ef7fde-c285-4c2e-8c1b-940d9f477e22>, at
> 05:12:34 on Mon, 18 Sep 2017, jack remarked:
> MK1.


> Given the time of day/daylight (left at 4.30pm in December), it's
> plausible the battery wasn't charging at all the whole way back south,
> so the battery eventually ran down.


Indeed. Of course with Mk1s even if the lights go down the
heating (steam or electric) still works, as it's just steam
radiators and basic static electric heaters. On Mk2s with
their pressure ventilation system, the heat only gets into
the coach if the fans are running and those are powered
from the lighting batteries, so dynamo failure also means
no therms.

One of my mot memorable journeys was in Mk1 compartment
stock on a "ScotRail Explorer" mystery tour about 1984,
the dynamo on our coach was down so the lights faded
out just as the sun went down on the return run, leading
to a really lovely journey most of the length of the WCML
in a completely dark 1st class compartment, with great
views of the passing countryside lit by the moon and
street lamps.

> >> After a while we were upgraded to uncatered First Class which had
> >> sufficient empty seats. Not to Dining-Class unfortunately, nor even
> >> Pullman-Dining. These trains seem to have at least 4 classes of
> >> accommodation!


> >The dining options tend to be a lot more expensive, and come in
> >more than one type.


> Indeed, and almost every tour I look at, only the dining is still
> available.


Do people still bring their own sandwiches? I'd have thought
as we all got more affluent we'd be more likely to take the
dining options, my mates and I, who started out as your typical
"spend as little as physically possible" bashers, started
indulging in the (very good) catering on SRPS tours in the 90s.
Recliner (18.09.2017, 16:17)
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:32:22 +0100, Roland Perry <roland>
wrote:

>In message
><1989208583.527428489.792479.recliner.ng-btinternet.com
>ember.org>, at 12:03:25 on Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner
><recliner.ng> remarked:
>Yes. But there's six different styles in First/Pullman, also two
>variants of Standard with either bench seats or individual seats.
>Premium Standard passengers are seated in 1960s open carriages with
>large picture windows. Passengers are seated around tables of four
>First Class passengers are seated in compartments for up to six people
>or, on rare occasions, in an open plan carriage on tables of four.


So, some compartment stock? Not so good on scenic journeys.

>{we were shifted to a 4+2, but I'm pretty sure it didn't having dining}


Sounds like an FO sans Dining.

>Premier Dining passengers are seated in coaches with tables for 4
>throughout or tables for 4 on one side of the aisle and tables for 2
>opposite.


It's a bit rich to call it Premier Dining if pax may be sitting in
standard class coaches with 2+2 seating.

>Pullman Style Dining Passengers are seated in vintage carriages and
>armchair style seats with individual table lamps and curtains at the
>window. Passengers are seated in carriages with tables for 4 on one side
>of the aisle and tables for 2 opposite.


'Pullman Style' is a gross exaggeration. These are probably
bog-standard FO coaches, which other operators market simply as
Premier or First Class Dining.

It sounds like they use a motley collection of Mk 1 and 2 WCR stock
Recliner (18.09.2017, 16:19)
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:50:21 +0100, Roland Perry <roland>
wrote:

>In message <69ef7fde-c285-4c2e-8c1b-940d9f477e22>, at
>05:12:34 on Mon, 18 Sep 2017, jack remarked:
>MK1.
>Given the time of day/daylight (left at 4.30pm in December), it's
>plausible the battery wasn't charging at all the whole way back south,
>so the battery eventually ran down.
>Indeed, and almost every tour I look at, only the dining is still
>available.


I'd imagine that's characteristic of steam charters. With diesels,
particularly from London, First Dining sells out first; some have no
standard class at all.
Roland Perry (18.09.2017, 16:22)
In message <6f9c5e51-ad29-460e-baf1-6d7be20a3a71>, at
06:10:01 on Mon, 18 Sep 2017, jack remarked:
>> >The dining options tend to be a lot more expensive, and come in
>> >more than one type.

>> Indeed, and almost every tour I look at, only the dining is still
>> available.

>Do people still bring their own sandwiches?


Yes.

>I'd have thought as we all got more affluent we'd be more likely to
>take the dining options, my mates and I, who started out as your
>typical "spend as little as physically possible" bashers, started
>indulging in the (very good) catering on SRPS tours in the 90s.


I'd rather spread the money over a greater number of trips.
Recliner (18.09.2017, 16:25)
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 06:01:34 -0700 (PDT), jack wrote:

>On Monday, 18 September 2017 13:34:56 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
>I thought it got up to 40 or so in places? Though has been many
>years now since I did the run. Agreed doing 40 tender first
>through the Highlands is not quite the same as doing it at 75
>on the WCML slows though. :)


It takes about two hours northbound, a little less southbound, for the
41 mile journey, so an average speed of ~20mph. I wouldn't have
thought it did much over 30mph at any point.
Roland Perry (18.09.2017, 18:52)
In message <mehvrchp2bo9qv813u5iia6m0uhd595ki9>, at 14:17:57 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner <Recliner.ng> remarked:

>So, some compartment stock? Not so good on scenic journeys.


I don't recall any compartments, just quoting their brochure.

>Sounds like an FO sans Dining.
>It's a bit rich to call it Premier Dining if pax may be sitting in
>standard class coaches with 2+2 seating.


You are double-counting. "Tables for four" is 2+0 (not that I recall
seeing any); "Tables for four and two" is 2+1, which is pretty routine
for First Class.

>'Pullman Style' is a gross exaggeration. These are probably
>bog-standard FO coaches, which other operators market simply as
>Premier or First Class Dining.


The "Pullman Style" will be the table lamps, curtains, menu, and even
the attentiveness of the staff.

>It sounds like they use a motley collection of Mk 1 and 2 WCR stock


I don't think they have any Mk2 in that rake.
Roland Perry (18.09.2017, 18:58)
In message <tshvrcdd9qf8ncdgl56fef0l7c9olsbemb>, at 14:19:37 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner <Recliner.ng> remarked:

>I'd imagine that's characteristic of steam charters. With diesels,
>particularly from London, First Dining sells out first; some have no
>standard class at all.


If they have a buffet car, which on the trip we made was more of a
support coach for the trolley dollies and storage for freebie
snack/drinks, it comes with half a coach of standard seating.

Reminded me a bit of the first two bays nearest the middle of the train,
of East Coast First Class carriages, which have long apparently been
dedicated to being a staff room for the catering crew on those long
intervals between a quick dash up and down the rest of the FC seating
once per station stop. Bring ear plugs.
Recliner (18.09.2017, 19:42)
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 16:52:12 +0100, Roland Perry <roland>
wrote:

>In message <mehvrchp2bo9qv813u5iia6m0uhd595ki9>, at 14:17:57 on
>Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner <Recliner.ng> remarked:
>I don't recall any compartments, just quoting their brochure.


It just means that they sometimes use some of WCR's compartment stock,
not necessarily on every journey.

>You are double-counting. "Tables for four" is 2+0 (not that I recall
>seeing any); "Tables for four and two" is 2+1, which is pretty routine
>for First Class.


No, tables for four means two four-seat tables across from each other.
In other words, standard class carriages.

>The "Pullman Style" will be the table lamps, curtains, menu, and even
>the attentiveness of the staff.
>I don't think they have any Mk2 in that rake.


Maybe not in that rake, but I think WCR do have some Mk 2s that Steam
Dreams may use on occasions.

The brochure obviously describes all the carriage possibilities from
the WCR fleet, but individual trains won't have every version.
Roland Perry (18.09.2017, 20:11)
In message <sktvrct1p9iobejfda22tae9v4h296vsmh>, at 17:42:22 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner <Recliner.ng> remarked:
>No, tables for four means two four-seat tables across from each other.
>In other words, standard class carriages.


That does sound more plausible than 2+0, but they don't describe it as
"First Class", it's a description of the *Dining*.

In order of price there's:

Standard - bring a picnic
First 3+0 or 2+1, bring a picnic
Premier Dining for 4 (might be 2+2, or could be 2+1)
Premier Dining for 2 (the "1" of 2+1)
Pullman Dining for 4 (Vintage First, the "2" of 2+1)
Pullman Dining for 2 (Vintage First, the "1" of 2+1)

>Maybe not in that rake, but I think WCR do have some Mk 2s that Steam
>Dreams may use on occasions.
>The brochure obviously describes all the carriage possibilities from
>the WCR fleet, but individual trains won't have every version.


My quote was from the accommodation available on one specific train.
Albeit still with some room for "maybe this, maybe that".
Neil Williams (18.09.2017, 22:58)
On 2017-09-18 13:10:01 +0000, jack said:

> Indeed. Of course with Mk1s even if the lights go down the
> heating (steam or electric) still works, as it's just steam
> radiators and basic static electric heaters. On Mk2s with
> their pressure ventilation system, the heat only gets into
> the coach if the fans are running and those are powered
> from the lighting batteries, so dynamo failure also means
> no therms.


I thought Mk2s had floor level radiators, except the Sleeper Mk2s which
have the weird alternating floor-ceiling blowers for some reason I have
never worked out (less fire risk perhaps?)

Photo showing the radiator here:


Neil
Recliner (18.09.2017, 23:02)
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:11:09 +0100, Roland Perry <roland>
wrote:

>In message <sktvrct1p9iobejfda22tae9v4h296vsmh>, at 17:42:22 on
>Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner <Recliner.ng> remarked:
>That does sound more plausible than 2+0, but they don't describe it as
>"First Class", it's a description of the *Dining*.
>In order of price there's:
>Standard - bring a picnic
>First 3+0 or 2+1, bring a picnic
>Premier Dining for 4 (might be 2+2, or could be 2+1)


As I said, it's a bit rich to call it 'Premier Dining' if pax may be
sitting in standard class coaches with 2+2 seating. With other charter
companies, Premier Dining guarantees a First class seat in an FO
carriage. In other words, it's a step up from First non-dining.
Another good reason to avoid Steam Dreams (as I always have)!

Incidentally, are you sure there wasn't a Mk 2 carriage in the rake? I
thought that unprotected passenger Mk1s weren't allowed on the main
line at the rear of the train. That's why you often see a Mk 2 as the
last carriage, if the rake doesn't have a diesel or the support coach
at the back.
Neil Williams (18.09.2017, 23:03)
On 2017-09-18 19:58:18 +0000, Neil Williams said:

> I thought Mk2s had floor level radiators, except the Sleeper Mk2s which
> have the weird alternating floor-ceiling blowers for some reason I have
> never worked out (less fire risk perhaps?)


Thinking on, I'm sure I recall some Mk2s without. Perhaps they were a
retrofit?

Neil
Roland Perry (18.09.2017, 23:20)
In message <o890sc5uppou0e7b92mrjq8otv5dhs7r3r>, at 21:02:47 on
Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Recliner <Recliner.ng> remarked:
>On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:11:09 +0100, Roland Perry <roland>
>wrote:
>As I said, it's a bit rich to call it 'Premier Dining' if pax may be
>sitting in standard class coaches with 2+2 seating.


Oh dear, you've caught the Really Pointless argument disease.

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