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RH156RH (04.03.2019, 17:35)
Note: Bayliss says in so many words what I have been saying, a lack of ggame management. RH



'We keep making the same mistakes' - Bayliss hoping for World Cup wake-up after 'embarrassing' loss

Trevor Bayliss and Eoin Morgan Getty Images
9:21 PM
George Dobell in St Lucia
You might think, after four years as England coach, that Trevor Bayliss might be inured to England's occasional - and, perhaps, not so occasional - propensity for a batting collapse.

But, seeing him at the team hotel on the morning after the night - okay, the early afternoon - before is to see a man clearly struggling to come to terms with events. He uses words such as "embarrassed" and admits he "can't get my head around" the disparity in quality between England's performances.For them to suffer the largest defeat, in terms of how long it took West Indies to knock off the target, in their ODI history on Bayliss' watch clearly hurts.

It wasn't just the extent of the defeat, though. It was the fact that it came in the final ODI before England were obliged to select their World Cup squad. Despite all the tours and training and faith in the players, it seemsthe England team retain a propensity, when confronted by conditions outside their comfort zone, to collapse in spectacular fashion. A difficulty in adapting to conditions is clearly a recurring problem.

And while Bayliss admitted the performance - perhaps it would be more accurate to call it the lack of performance? - could be the "wake-up call" his side required, he also said that some of the current players have had every opportunity to nail down their places and failed to do so. As a consequence, Jofra Archer will be given an opportunity to show what he can do during the ODIs against Ireland and Pakistan despite having just 14 List A appearances to his name. He would appear to have every chance of winning a World Cup spot.

"Was it the worst yet?" Bayliss said of defeat in St Lucia. "I think it was.. To lose in such a fashion? I think they [the players] were embarrassed.

"We talk all the time about playing smart cricket but, quite simply, we didn't play smart cricket. We kept making the same mistakes.

"Whether it's a bit of overconfidence - have we gone into the match with, not a blasť attitude, but an overconfident attitude where they go out and play their natural games and think it'll just happen? Batting can't be easy and free flowing all the time. And it's happened a few times."

Bayliss hopes the game will prove to be something of a watershed moment. Straight afterwards, the team held a long meeting in the dressing room where they reflected on their failings and, he believes, understood where they went wrong.

"I didn't have to say very much," he said. "Eoin Morgan started the conversation and three or four of the most experienced players in the team led it.They were on the money.

"They were talking about getting to 220-230 on that pitch. That conversation was going on out in the middle and in the dressing room. But we didn't put it into play.

"You're not going to score 400 on a wicket like that but you make high 200s, 300, 350 and it's enough to win games on those wickets. Yesterday we justdidn't. Two hundred and we would have been right in the game.
grabber (06.03.2019, 09:16)
On 04/03/2019 15:35, RH156RH wrote:
> Note: Bayliss says in so many words what I have been saying, a lack of ggame management. RH
>


You set yourself very low standards for the evidence you require to
proclaim yourself vindicated.

In that article, Bayliss directly contradicts the main contentions of
your earlier email - that Eng have "no idea" of game management and that
the team culture precludes adapting tactics to circumstances.

Have you even read the article? Bayliss is at pains to point out that
the team identified that a lower total would be OK in this game, and
that the players in the middle and in the dressing re-evaluated this. So
they did have both an idea of what to adapt and a culture of discussing
this.

Of course what we all know - because it is obvious - is that the players
made a poor fist of executing the strategy. Insofar as this was due to
players not changing their technique to suit the conditions, you are the
last person who can fairly criticise them for this, because you
habitually claim that playing in a particular way in some matches
inevitably changes players' "mindset" and precludes them from playing
consistently in another way in other matches. You can't have it both
ways: either it is reasonable to expect players to adapt their style and
technique, or it isn't.
RH156RH (07.03.2019, 10:01)
On Wednesday, March 6, 2019 at 7:16:42 AM UTC, grabber wrote:
[..]
> consistently in another way in other matches. You can't have it both
> ways: either it is reasonable to expect players to adapt their style and
> technique, or it isn't.


Bayliss put the blame on the players for not following his game plan, whichis the same as my game plan, namely,m adapt to the conditions and circumstances of the game. Ergo, the team effectively had no game plan because theydid not follow the coach's game plan.... RH
grabber (07.03.2019, 23:53)
On 07/03/2019 08:01, RH156RH wrote:
[..]
grabber (07.03.2019, 23:56)
On 07/03/2019 08:01, RH156RH wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 6, 2019 at 7:16:42 AM UTC, grabber wrote:
> Bayliss put the blame on the players for not following his game plan, which is the same as my game plan, namely,m adapt to the conditions and circumstances of the game. Ergo, the team effectively had no game plan because they did not follow the coach's game plan.... RH


You really haven't read the article, have you? Bayliss was at pains to
point out that it was not "his" game plan but one which the players were
active in evolving, including while they were in the middle. So not a
lack of ideas, and not a matter of culture (which were your claims), but
a failure of execution.
max.it (08.03.2019, 02:45)
On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 21:56:16 +0000, grabber <gr> wrote:

>On 07/03/2019 08:01, RH156RH wrote:


>You really haven't read the article, have you?


I know respected ministers of religion who hven't figured out that
Mark's gospel must have came before Matthew's and that the anti
semitic gospel of John could not have been written by a bog standard
fisherman.
Reading doesn't mean understanding whenever you have already chosen
and paid for your ticket.

max.it
RH156RH (08.03.2019, 09:38)
On Thursday, March 7, 2019 at 9:56:16 PM UTC, grabber wrote:
> On 07/03/2019 08:01, RH156RH wrote:
> You really haven't read the article, have you? Bayliss was at pains to
> point out that it was not "his" game plan but one which the players were
> active in evolving, including while they were in the middle. So not a
> lack of ideas, and not a matter of culture (which were your claims), but
> a failure of execution.


He is the coach. Ergo, the ultimate responsibility for the game plan is his.... RH
Mike Holmans (09.03.2019, 01:30)
On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 21:56:16 +0000, grabber <gr> wrote:

>On 07/03/2019 08:01, RH156RH wrote:


>> Bayliss put the blame on the players for not following his game plan, which is the same as my game plan, namely,m adapt to the conditions and circumstances of the game. Ergo, the team effectively had no game plan because they did not follow the coach's game plan.... RH

>You really haven't read the article, have you? Bayliss was at pains to
>point out that it was not "his" game plan but one which the players were
>active in evolving, including while they were in the middle. So not a
>lack of ideas, and not a matter of culture (which were your claims), but
>a failure of execution.


Quite apart from the fact that "adapt to the conditions and
circumstances of the game" cannot by definition be a game *plan* - it
is what one ought to do once one finds that one's plan isn't panning
out very well.

I'm surprised that the imbecile thinks that coaches are supposed to
come up with game plans: it's a highly anti-traditionalist position to
take the responsibility for strategy and tactics away from the
captain, so this represents one of the few issues on which I'm far
more on the side of tradition, since I hold the captain responsible
for what happens on the field. Fortunately, England also believe that
game plans are the captain's responsibility; the coach's job is to
advise and to make sure that the players are prepared to carry out the
captain's plan.

Let's see what our white-ball captain had to say about this evening's
performance:

'Eoin Morgan: "Our biggest improvement has been that we've adapted to
conditions very well. Backs against the wall at 30 for 4, the
partnership was outstanding, and we grabbed hold of momentum. We've
got to keep on learning, we have improvements to make going into the
final game in two days' time."'

No doubt the imbecile will wish to point out that this was T20, not
50-over stuff, so it's completely different - since he would never
make the facile error of comparing someone's 50-over stats with their
FC stats, would he?

Cheers,

Mike
max.it (09.03.2019, 01:41)
On Fri, 08 Mar 2019 23:30:36 +0000, Mike Holmans
<mike> wrote:

[..]
>FC stats, would he?
>Cheers,
>Mike


He made similar remarks at the toss so the game plan must have worked
out alright.

max.it
RH156RH (09.03.2019, 09:57)
On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 11:30:40 PM UTC, Mike Holmans wrote:
[..]
> FC stats, would he?
> Cheers,
> Mike


Translation: Bayliss put the blame on the players for not following his game plan, which is the same as my game plan, namely,m adapt to the conditions and circumstances of the game. Ergo, the team effectively had no game plan because they did not follow the coach's game plan.... RH
grabber (09.03.2019, 10:32)
On 08/03/2019 07:38, RH156RH wrote:
> On Thursday, March 7, 2019 at 9:56:16 PM UTC, grabber wrote:
> He is the coach. Ergo, the ultimate responsibility for the game plan is his... RH


Even that is questionable (see Mike's post) but it is irrelevant anyway.

We were discussing not responsibility but *ideas* and *culture*. If we
accept the evidence you have introduced, the players do have ideas about
adapting to conditions and a culture of discussing them, whereas you
claimed they had no ideas or culture of seeking to adapt.

Why did you cite something that contradicts your claims as evidence that
they were correct?

I think it may be time for you to make your selection from Geoff's menu.
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