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Pamela (24.05.2019, 23:18)
Lots of commentators on Theresa May's departure are saying her successor
should now get the EU to give us more concessions. Good luck with that.

Our demands for Brexit are already unrealistic enough.

Are these the same people who said the EU would cave in at the 11th hour?
Well, it didn't happen.
Norman Wells (25.05.2019, 00:10)
On 24/05/2019 22:18, Pamela wrote:

> Lots of commentators on Theresa May's departure are saying her successor
> should now get the EU to give us more concessions. Good luck with that.
> Our demands for Brexit are already unrealistic enough.


There's no alternative. There's no majority for her deal. If the EU
won't renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, the default position is that
we leave at the end of October with no deal.
> Are these the same people who said the EU would cave in at the 11th hour?
> Well, it didn't happen.


No, so we're heading for a no-deal Brexit.
Pamela (25.05.2019, 00:19)
On 23:10 24 May 2019, Norman Wells <hex> wrote:

> On 24/05/2019 22:18, Pamela wrote:
> There's no alternative. There's no majority for her deal. If the EU
> won't renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, the default position is that
> we leave at the end of October with no deal.


So you reckon Parliament will allow a No Deal Brexit. I don't.

>> Are these the same people who said the EU would cave in at the 11th hour?
>> Well, it didn't happen.

> No, so we're heading for a no-deal Brexit.


People said that about 29th March 29 and then about 12th April. Oops, what a
mistake.
Norman Wells (25.05.2019, 00:25)
On 24/05/2019 23:19, Pamela wrote:
> On 23:10 24 May 2019, Norman Wells <hex> wrote:
> So you reckon Parliament will allow a No Deal Brexit. I don't.


It's not actually within Parliament's control.

>>> Are these the same people who said the EU would cave in at the 11th hour?
>>> Well, it didn't happen.

>> No, so we're heading for a no-deal Brexit.

> People said that about 29th March 29 and then about 12th April. Oops, what a
> mistake.


That's just a delay. The default position, if we haven't got an
acceptable deal by the end of October is still a no-deal Brexit.
Fredxx (25.05.2019, 00:37)
On 24/05/2019 22:18, Pamela wrote:
> Lots of commentators on Theresa May's departure are saying her successor
> should now get the EU to give us more concessions. Good luck with that.
> Our demands for Brexit are already unrealistic enough.


The demands of a remainer, quite possibly.

> Are these the same people who said the EU would cave in at the 11th hour?
> Well, it didn't happen.


No, May caved in and broke her promise we were leaving on the 29th
March. It's what happens when you have remainer negotiators. All the
signals were given to the EU negotiators May didn't have the bottle.
Fredxx (25.05.2019, 00:39)
On 24/05/2019 23:19, Pamela wrote:
> On 23:10 24 May 2019, Norman Wells <hex> wrote:
> So you reckon Parliament will allow a No Deal Brexit. I don't.


You are foolish to think that. It is the default position.

>>> Are these the same people who said the EU would cave in at the 11th hour?
>>> Well, it didn't happen.

>> No, so we're heading for a no-deal Brexit.

> People said that about 29th March 29 and then about 12th April. Oops, what a
> mistake.


Quite, why should we believe the promises made by a remainer PM. We
could/should have left on that date, but May didn't have the bottle.
Dean Jackson (25.05.2019, 00:43)
On 24/05/2019 22:18, Pamela wrote:
[..]
Keema's Nan (25.05.2019, 08:52)
On 24 May 2019, Norman Wells wrote
(in article <gkr8e8Fcc1pU1>):

> On 24/05/2019 22:18, Pamela wrote:
> There's no alternative. There's no majority for her deal. If the EU
> won't renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, the default position is that
> we leave at the end of October with no deal.


That is what everyone said about the 29th March, but it didn’t happen.
Keema's Nan (25.05.2019, 08:54)
On 24 May 2019, Norman Wells wrote
(in article <gkr9asFciipU1>):

> On 24/05/2019 23:19, Pamela wrote:
> It's not actually within Parliament's control.
> That's just a delay.


Excuses, excuses.

> The default position, if we haven't got an
> acceptable deal by the end of October is still a no-deal Brexit.


If you were the EU and your stubborn stance had thrown the UK government into
chaos, would you really be quaking in your shoes knowing that you have seen
of the UK PM, and are going to be faced with an inexperienced upstart?
Keema's Nan (25.05.2019, 08:55)
On 24 May 2019, Fredxx wrote
(in article <qc9rrk$323$2>):

> On 24/05/2019 23:19, Pamela wrote:
> You are foolish to think that. It is the default position.


There would need to be a vote on No Deal. How are you expecting a majority to
be conjured up for that?
[..]
Norman Wells (25.05.2019, 09:59)
On 25/05/2019 07:54, Keema's Nan wrote:
> On 24 May 2019, Norman Wells wrote
> (in article <gkr9asFciipU1>):
> Excuses, excuses.


No, it's *fact*.

>> The default position, if we haven't got an
>> acceptable deal by the end of October is still a no-deal Brexit.

> If you were the EU and your stubborn stance had thrown the UK government into
> chaos, would you really be quaking in your shoes knowing that you have seen
> of the UK PM, and are going to be faced with an inexperienced upstart?


The EU wants a deal. It doesn't have one, at least not yet. It follows
that there's still some work to be done, or we will leave with no deal.
Norman Wells (25.05.2019, 10:08)
On 25/05/2019 07:55, Keema's Nan wrote:
> On 24 May 2019, Fredxx wrote
> (in article <qc9rrk3>):
> There would need to be a vote on No Deal.


Since it's the default position, it is what happens automatically if we
have not reached agreement by the end of any extended period. And any
extension needs to be both requested by the UK and agreed by all the EU
countries unanimously, which is by no means certain, especially if
there's no real prospect of resolution.

A vote in Parliament can only affect what is under Parliament's control.
And the default position isn't.

> How are you expecting a majority to be conjured up for that?


Since it's a bit of an irrelevance putting it to a vote, maybe it won't
be put.
Norman Wells (25.05.2019, 10:13)
On 25/05/2019 07:52, Keema's Nan wrote:
> On 24 May 2019, Norman Wells wrote
> (in article <gkr8e8Fcc1pU1>):
> That is what everyone said about the 29th March, but it didn’t happen.


It's still the default position, but now at the end of October. If
there's little prospect of a deal being reached that can pass through
Parliament by then, some EU countries will doubtless query why Brexit
uncertainty should be prolonged any further. It only takes one to vote
against any further extension and the end of October becomes the final
deadline, with us leaving with no deal.
Nightjar (25.05.2019, 10:14)
On 24/05/2019 23:10, Norman Wells wrote:
> On 24/05/2019 22:18, Pamela wrote:
> There's no alternative.  There's no majority for her deal.  If the EU
> won't renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, the default position is that
> we leave at the end of October with no deal.
> No, so we're heading for a no-deal Brexit.


Which won't change a thing, other than causing major financial problems
for the UK. The EU has made it clear that, in the event of a no deal
Brexit, any post Brexit trade negotiations would require the UK to adopt
the May deal as part of the negotiations. The only way to get a
different deal would be to abandon some or all of the red lines.

--
Norman Wells (25.05.2019, 10:32)
On 25/05/2019 09:14, Nightjar wrote:
> On 24/05/2019 23:10, Norman Wells wrote:
> Which won't change a thing, other than causing major financial problems
> for the UK. The EU has made it clear that, in the event of a no deal
> Brexit, any post Brexit trade negotiations would require the UK to adopt
> the May deal as part of the negotiations. The only way to get a
> different deal would be to abandon some or all of the red lines.


If there's no deal, there's no deal. We will trade with the EU under
WTO terms, applying whatever tariffs we choose to goods we import.

If we and they want a special deal, that will have to be negotiated,
with neither side being able to lay down any preconditions. Everything
will be up for grabs.

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